Category Archives: Advice

Breaking up is hard to do- even among friends

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If all else fails, hit them with a stick.

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

I was friends with a person for a while, and during that time the person did not respect boundaries I tried to set clearly and added a lot of unnecessary drama to my life. At one point the person and I had an argument resulting in the person calling me a very offensive insult, and I told the person that the relationship was over and the insult was unforgivable to me. I thought this was a clear “break up.” Unfortunately the person did not interpret it as such and continues to invite me to events, seek me out at my workplace, ask other friends about me, etc.
What is the best way to explain I prefer no continued contact with this person without explicitly telling him that he’s a toxic drain on me?
Thank you so much!
Sincerely,
So Over This
Official Etiquette:
Miss Manners is actually a huge fan of the fade out, which she calls “being increasingly too busy to socialize.” But she says when the person is bothering you to the point of practically stalking, she says you have to tell the person that you are no longer interested in seeing them.
Our Take:

Jaya: This question has such perfect timing, I had just starting writing a post specifically about the friendship fade-out and I think a lot of my points will work here too.

Victoria: Hahah yes! Tell me your points.

Jaya: I have this working theory that social media totally makes it harder to gracefully  fade out of a friendship. I know you’ve made this point before, that fade outs for friends was really accepted and normal, because sometimes you just stopped being friends and it’s fine. Good lord if I had kept in touch with everyone at summer camp I thought was gonna be my BFFL there’s no way I’d even have time for a job. But now in order to stop being friends, it really takes effort. You do need to cut them out of your life in a more active way. (Also I think we could all take to heart the idea that not every friend is a forever friend, and that’s okay.)

Victoria: Yeah. I think Facebook, etc does make it feel like you are still friends because you see pretty big pieces of their life. And like, actually, I don’t think its that bad to keep up a FB connection with someone who you don’t really want to be active friends with. But obviously when you cross a line…then you have to be more proactive.

Jaya: Right. There is a difference between a Facebook friend and an IRL friend, for lack of better terms, and it’s easy to mistake the former for the latter. Social media is great for those friends you do live far away from. There are people I really liked that I probably would have faded out with if weren’t for Facebook, and I’m grateful for that. But right, then every person who sees your photos and reads the articles you post think they’re having a great personal interaction with you. That’s slightly besides the point here, where it sounds like this person is bordering on stalking.

Victoria: Hahah yeah!

Jaya: Like “seeks me out at my work place” raises HUGE red flags.

Victoria: I think in this case LW needs to say, “I am still angry and offended about our fight and you need to leave me alone.” The fight situation gives LW a good excuse that’s not making it about how toxic the person is.

Jaya: Absolutely. Sometimes people don’t get it after the first round, but keep the same message. And maybe tell your friends to do it too. Just like “I told you this relationships is over, so please stop contacting me”

Victoria: Yep yep.

Jaya: There may be a more polite way to say that but fuck it, we’re past that now.

Victoria: That’s pretty polite, you said please.

Jaya: It’s interesting to me how so much of our vocabulary about friendships is the same as romantic relationships, yet there’s this reluctance to treat them the same way. Like, in this letter, this guy does something offensive and unforgivable, and she says they can’t see each other anymore. That situation has gone down a million times in romantic relationships, and in those situations this guy would be considered a creepy ex. But here he’s just a person still trying to be friends.

Victoria: Yeah, I wonder if it’s because you CAN be kind of a casual friend but you can’t really be in a casual relationship? I mean, other than a FWB thing.

Jaya: Totally. Like, if someone said “even if we don’t talk for months, we can pick up right where we left off” about a spouse, that’d be a bad thing. So here, there was a firm “break up,” even if this person is not getting the message. And I think the letter writer just needs to repeat it until the ex-friend gets it, unfortunately. Not in detail, not “because you’re a toxic drain on my life,” but reminding him of what LW already said and standing by it. And then just blocking all email/Facebook/other contact points/

Victoria: Yep! Yeah, I think saying that he’s a toxic drain would make him defensive

Jaya: Right, that’s just inviting a conversation.

Victoria: No contact is just much easier and like, at a point, it goes beyond etiquette into safety. And safety always trumps etiquette.

Jaya: Absolutely. If he’s legitimately contacting you at work, talk to HR. Or the police. Or if you work at a “public” place like a bar, restaurant, retail, etc. makes this much more difficult. But ideally you can talk to your boss and something can be set up. Like, there’s a photo of him and everyone can recognize who it is and back you up if he comes in.

Victoria: That’s a great idea, but I mean, hopefully it doesn’t get to that point.

Jaya: I do think we can segue into the idea of the FRIENDSHIP FADEOUT that I’m clearly dying to talk about, because in most friendships, there is not a singular fight that marks an end point. Either there’s a pattern of behavior that turns you off, or you just realize you’ve grown apart and don’t feel like putting the effort in anymore.

Victoria: Yeah for sure. (I hope your wanting to talk about this so badly is not a hint =P)

Jaya: Hahaha omg are you kidding me??? Also I talk to you every day. So I’m doing a bad job if that’s my plan.

Victoria: Hahahahaha, good point.. Okay anyway, what would you like to say about fade outs?

Jaya: Basically, I’m a fan of the fade out, because I think it’s something that always occurred very naturally and it only seems unnatural now with Facebook and such. Like, people grow apart! This is not an offensive concept and friendships ebb and flow, certainly, but it seems to me the signs of a fade out are pretty clear. Someone minimally or flat out, not at all engaging in any contact with you, never initiating anything or wanting to hang out when you initiate, etc. And I guess if you can’t pick up those hints there are bigger problems. I’m sure people can be like “wahh we should all be straightforward” but I don’t know, lots of human interaction is based on hints and suggestions.

Victoria: Yeah! And it’s usually not like you hate the person.

Jaya: I actually think Kate Harding put it well in this article about affirmative consent. Like, constantly taking stock of someone else’s reactions to what you’re doing is part of sex/a relationship. And not just “yes” and “no.” You can tell when someone is into something and when they’re not, usually.

And right! It’s not about hating someone, you just stop being great friends. I don’t really see this as devastating. Like, it might hurt to see someone pulling away, but usually you can find that it’s mutual? I think the situation where one person is 100% on board and the other is 100% not is pretty rare.

Victoria: Yeah, I can’t even remember in my own life….I think it so often happens during a life change…or especially distance that you almost don’t even notice.

Jaya: Right. Every once in a while there might be a pang, like “oh I had a fun time with that person, I wonder where they went” but I’m not losing sleep over it.

Can I Have My Wedding On My Friend’s Birthday?

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tumblr_inline_my33zkvEB91s4rar7Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

My fiance and I are in the early stages of planning our wedding, and the date we’re shooting for happens to be the 30th birthday of one of the girls I want to ask to be a bridesmaid. She said it’s fine, but I still sort of feel bad. Now, I’m debating on whether or not we should still aim for that day, and if we do, if we should do something special to celebrate for her. Any ideas?

Sincerely,

Milestone Madness

 

OFFICIAL ETIQUETTE

The Emily Post Institute suggests acknowledging any birthdays at a rehearsal dinner, but that they shouldn’t stop you from celebrating your wedding. Apparently some people are really opinionated about this.

OUR TAKE

Victoria: It’s a slippery slope once you start taking things like that into account. Then you have to check with EVERYBODY before you do anything and it’ll drive you crazy.

Jaya: It’s not as intense as this because bridesmaids may be a bit different, but we had two cousins’ birthdays on our wedding day! They were both totally fine with it. I mean, there are only 365 days in a year, it’s always going to be someone’s birthday/anniversary/something.

Victoria: Exactly.

Jaya: I think you should make sure your immediate family is all good, but after that it might get too hectic. Though it’s good she asked. I feel like if a good friend got married on my birthday and asked me I’d be totally fine, but if they just planned it without getting my okay first, I’d be annoyed. I have no justification for why I feel like this though.

Victoria: That makes total sense. And especially for this, since it’s a big birthday, you want to make sure they don’t have anything planned!

Jaya: I think there may be some reading between the lines to be done here too. Like, is this the type of friend who is totally honest about this stuff? Or will say it’s fine when it’s not fine? And then, how much do you care?

Victoria: But wouldn’t you feel so terrible if someone planned their WEDDING around your birthday? You have a birthday every year! Plus you can tell all these strangers its your birthday and get a lot of well wishes.

Jaya: I mean, getting dressed up and having an open bar on my birthday? Score.

Victoria: And as an adult, you can celebrate your birthday that whole week too. Hurricane Sandy ruined our birthdays one year, and we just celebrated later. It was fine.

Jaya: And if she seems the type to be miffed that the attention is not on her on her birthday, put candles in her cake or something. I do wonder about the type of person who would get furious at this though.

Victoria: It shows a lack of maturity to me. That’s the type of person who thinks the world revolves around them, and I’m not interested in their opinions anyway.

Jaya: What dates do you think are off limits? Like, I would not get married on a close relative’s anniversary. Though a friend of a friend got married on her parents anniversary. Is that something that’s done?

Victoria: Maybe not your parents anniversary. Grandparents could work though. I actually figured out which years my grandparents’ anniversaries fell on Saturdays. For entertainment.

My Roommate Is Permanently Camped In Our Common Space

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This might actually be a better solution [Via]

Hey guys!

Exciting to email you, I’m a big fan. I’m also a college student, and typically at my school, students move out of dorms into apartments for junior year (which I’m in). I’m in a 2 bedroom apartment with one other girl; the common space consists of a connected kitchen and living room. My roommate has never lived in an apartment before and doesn’t seem to have been raised with some of the same instincts for being considerate that I have, so I’ve been having a lot of issues with public space and how considerate that I can expect her to be in it. Some examples of what I mean:
-she moved in a few days earlier than I did, and she neglected to tell me she was going to bring all her tchotchkes (of which there are MANY) and put them everywhere in the kitchen/living room, as well as hanging her art up in all the ideal locations. I hate tchotchkes and feel like the room doesn’t look like it’s mine at all.
-If she’s home, she’s in the living room. She basically only goes to her bedroom to sleep. It makes me feel uncomfortable about being in the living room most of the time… because she’s already there. Always. There. Just dinking around on her laptop (also she doesn’t use headphones and laughs while she read things).
-we have comfortable living room seating for like 2 1/2 (a loveseat and a beanbag chair). When my friends come over, she tends to just stay in the living room (on the beanbag chair) so not only is she just THERE while we talk/whatever, we’re also kinda squished together.
-Also this is a general anyone thing but she leaves the iPhone keyboard typing sound on and it is the WORST. Why do people use that?! Do they need everyone to know that they’re capable of typing?!
Are any of these legit issues to have or am I being unreasonable? Can y’all offer some tips on sharing an apartment?
Sorry this is like Russian-novel length but I feel like I’m going insane and no one knows etiquette like you do.
Yours,
Going insane in my own apartment
Official Etiquette:
Miss Manners has a great question from a grandmother whose granddaughter is living with her (even 70 year olds don’t know how to deal with roommates!) Obviously she advocates discussing boundaries with the person.
Our Take:

Jaya: Apartment etiquette! So fraught!

Victoria: Ahhhh. Ack, I have been so guilty of some of this in the past, it’s my biggest etiquette sin.

Jaya: Hahahaa omg, I haaaate the iPhone noises. What person does that?

Victoria: Yeah, that’s really bad. I 100% think in a shared space you should do what you can to not have excess noise.

Jaya: I feel like apartments and roommates are like, the ultimate test of the core of etiquette–this idea that you need to be accommodating of other people while still taking care of yourself.

Victoria: Hahah yeah. I actually once really did hog the living room- but I HAD to- for some reason our wireless only worked for me in there and not in my bedroom.

Jaya: Ooh that’s rough, yeah I know that feeling. I mean, I think there are a few things that can be said outright. Asking someone to put on headphones if they’re listening to videos on their laptop is totally normal. Also I think asking about the art. If you have stuff you want to hang up, say that you’d like some space in the living room to do it.

Victoria: Yeah, that one is pretty weird to me, that she would decorate without asking.

Jaya: I guess it depends on how she acts normally. I can’t get a read on if they knew each other before or not, or what kind of personal relationship they have but you can either be like “Hey I have this poster I think would look great above the couch” and hope she gets the hint. Or be more direct and say “I feel like you decorated the living room entirely with your stuff, and I’d like to make it a little more balanced so it can feel like home for both of us.”

Victoria: Yeah that’s all good. And I think you can ask that she spend some time in her bedroom. Be like, I have some friends coming over tonight and I’d like to use the living room. This was my problem in my younger years- I was so used to sharing space with my family, that I genuinely could not see the problem with my just being physically present, even if I was being absolutely silent. And it took, ahem, kind of a long time to understand it.

Jaya: Yes, definitely keep her posted on some plans.

Victoria: And like, really don’t be afraid to just go in there and plop down on the couch and turn on the TV, and if she complains….I guess just be like, “well the TV is in here, so it gets precedence and if you don’t like it you have a room you can sit in.”

Jaya: As weird as it sounds, hiding in your room is only going to teach her that she can sit in the living room all she wants. You sorta have to step to her with this. So side story: My freshman year dorm roommate had been to boarding school before, so she had lived in dorms and I hadn’t. I, however, lived in apartments my whole life, so it’s not like the idea of shared living was new to me. She proceeds to give me this whole lecture on how to live in a dorm, and how I probably don’t know ANYTHING about it, and being really mean and judgmental about it. When all the advice was like “don’t make too much noise if the other person is sleeping” and “don’t bring guys back all the time.” Like, stuff any normal considerate human would know. She was THE WORST ROOMMATE. She took over all the spaces, constantly had people over and wouldn’t hang out elsewhere when I said I had to study or sleep, and generally acted like I wasn’t there. So, obviously not that LW is doing this, but just make sure if you’re coming at it from “I know what apartment living is like and she doesn’t,” that you’re not just trying to make it all your space either. I say this entirely out of past trauma and not because I actually think LW sounds like this.

Victoria: Hahahah yeah. And I understand not wanting to talk to them about it, but you have to or you will just stew.

Jaya: Yes. (Freshman year roommate also refused to talk to me about this stuff when I sat her down and was like “We need to discuss this”…after she gave me a whole lecture on not letting things stew).

Victoria: Sounds like a peach.

Jaya: So what if she brings up a bunch of reasonable points and such, and this roommate just shuts everything down and is like “no my tchotchkes stay everywhere.”

Victoria: Lol…..well then you don’t really have many options- it’s beyond etiquette and you’re dealing with an unreasonable person. If the school offers mediation, try that. If not, move.

Jaya: And break some of the tchotchkes on your way out.

Victoria: Hahah yeah, I mean, the thing with a bad roommate is sometimes the best solution is to just leave. And even if you can’t, it’s just for the one year and then you will have this great story to one-up people with for the rest of your life.

I Thought We Weren’t Friends, But I’m Invited To The Wedding

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Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

Today I got an email from a person from college I’ve “broken up with,” by which I mean I haven’t talked to them in years and de friended them on Facebook because they are generally a NOPE person these days. This person just sent an email asking for my address to send their wedding invitation.

WHAT DO I DO.

I mean, there’s been no contact at all and I was sort of hoping they’d get the picture by now. Do I send my address and then decline the invitation to not ruffle feathers at this junction, or will that just seem to invite them to try to rekindle the relationship which DO NOT WANT. Or can I ignore it and hope I don’t have to ever deal with it and they get the picture without me having to be like “we’re not friends anymore please stop.” Because clearly I’ve been avoiding that talk.

Signed,
Ack

 

OFFICIAL ETIQUETTE

Miss Manners says that declining an invitation needn’t include any explanation as to why (for instance, because you do not want to be friends any more), and Emily Post agrees. However, most of the advice is for after you’ve received an invitation, and assumes you have slightly-fond feelings toward the person sending it.

OUR TAKE

Jaya: I know this is why the “friendship fadeout” is bad, so let that be a lesson to us all. Even though I’ll probably keep doing it.

Victoria: Man, this type of person will just not give up. I have someone like that from High School. He just repeatedly tries to get in touch and I am not having it.

Jaya:  I think the lowest-impact option is to just send your address (plainly, with no “oooh congrats, so exciting!” or anything), and decline the invitation when it comes. As much as you might want to, a wedding is not the time to have the “actually we’re not friends” talk. Though, if this behavior continues post-wedding, that may have to happen.

Victoria: I’d also consider not sending a gift or card.  Although, that might be a good reason to advocate emailing a “thanks but no thanks” since a wedding invitation generallllly requires a gift.

Jaya: A gift is a gift, not a requirement!

Victoria: Yesss, but in our culture there’s an idea that you should send a gift even if you can’t attend. The couple shouldn’t EXPECT it, but it’s a firm Miss Manners rule that invitation=gift.

Jaya: Yeah but that’s why we’re here, to discuss and dispel these rules. Anyway, I do think not sending a gift sends the intended hint that the friendship is over.

Victoria: Though it’s less strong if the person hasn’t been picking up on these hints in the first place.

Jaya: Right? It feels weird to say this, but in our modern times I think de-friending on Facebook is a pretty accepted hint.

Victoria: Back to the fadeout. I think it’s good for friends who are far away who you don’t want to keep in touch with. As much as it’d be nice to end things cleanly, those sorts of conversations can be really hurtful. But if it’s someone you see all the time, a direct conversation needs to happen.

Jaya: I don’t know about living far away. I have a lot of friends from college who live in different cities now, and sometimes we won’t talk for a while, but then we’ll see each other and it’s like nothing has changed. I think it would be easy to mistake an intentional fadeout with “oh we just don’t talk sometimes but we’re still close.”

Victoria: Yeah, although I think the de-Facebooking would be a pretty big hint. Ideally you can tell the difference with a fadeout in that the person will just not respond to you.

Breaking Down “Do Over Weddings”

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Best game?

So there’s a new trend in the wedding world where a couple decides to elope or have an intimate ceremony (or sometimes has to rush down to City Hall for a legal wedding for any number of reasons) and then later on decide that they feel like they missed out on the big white wedding and so decide to have that in some way. This can be very controversial in the wedding parts of the internet. Offbeat Bride calls it “getting weddinged” vs “getting legaled” and A Practical Wedding discusses it pretty frequently too. However, these sites, obviously, lean towards the more “throw etiquette into the wind and do what suits you” side of wedding planning. On sites like The Knot, these types of weddings are referred to as “Pretty Pretty Princess Days” and are very much frowned on. Your mainstream etiquette doyennes such as Miss Manners and the Emily Post Institute all advise against them, though agree that a reception following an elopement is fine.

To sum up the debate:

Reasons why people want to have after-the-fact weddings:

  • Sometimes life gets in the way with insurance, immigration, military deployments, and other legal issues and you have to get a legal marriage before you’ve had the chance to finish saving money for or planning a wedding.
  • Some people feel nervous or shy about talking about their feelings in public and want to do that part in private.
  • Some people elope and then regret not getting to celebrate with all of their friends and family.
  • Some people loved their elopement but their families were mad that they didn’t have a wedding and are now pressuring them to have one.
  • Some people feel that their vows don’t become “real” until they say them before friends and family or in a religious space.
  • The want to have a religious component that wasn’t possible in a City Hall wedding.
  • Some people see the legal component and the community component can be completely separate and don’t feel “married” from the legal ceremony.
  • If the couple comes from two or more cultures with very specific wedding traditions, and wants to please the family by holding a “traditional” wedding from both sides.

Reasons why they are frowned upon (NB: a reception after an elopement is always fine, etiquette wise. This supposes a full do over of the ceremony, complete with fancy dress and bridal party).

  • Often times the couple will lie about the fact that they are already married. This can be especially problematic with religious ceremonies. The Catholic Church, at least, considers legal weddings to be valid and will not conduct a wedding ceremony for already married people, so to have one, you will have to lie. They do have a marriage blessing that you can do.
  • Some people feel that the motivation behind having a big wedding later is to get the gifts that they missed out on by eloping.
  • Some people feel that if they are not witnessing the legal marriage then it doesn’t count and the wedding is “fake,” there is a theory that you get one wedding per marriage.
  • Some people feel that weddings are mandatory events, but often won’t consider a non-wedding celebration to be the same level of importance and don’t want to travel for it.
  • It can be a little confusing about what date you use as your wedding date for legal purposes vs for celebratory purposes.
  • That sometimes life intervenes and you have to have a quick wedding instead of an elaborate one, and you should just deal with it. (Kind of an American puritanism “act in haste, repent at leisure” kind of judgement.)
  • A giant wedding is not a right and people don’t want to play along to help you create a fantasy that isn’t “real.”
  • It’s insulting to people who choose to elope or have a courthouse wedding to insinuate that it’s not real or not romantic or fun.
  • Your friends and family may SAY they are okay with it, but there are plenty of people who have gone along with do over weddings who felt that they couldn’t say anything, even though they didn’t think it was okay.

Okay, so that’s a lot, and obviously Jaya and Victoria have a lot of thoughts on the subject. It’s important to us to remind our readers that with everything that we write about, we just want to give you all of the information so you can make your decisions fully informed with what the consequences of those decisions might be.

So this conversation happened in response to this piece, in which the couple felt overwhelmed by saying their vows in front of everyone and eloped privately on a mountain (in Colorado where you don’t need witnesses), but then held a full wedding, complete with another ceremony and vows, in front of their family and friends.

Jaya: I feel like that’s not so bad. Like, that’s a decent way to have two things.

Victoria: Yeah, it wasn’t the worst.

Jaya: I am curious if they told their guests though.

Victoria: But I still don’t get this idea of “oh we are shy so we had a private thing” so we are going to have a thing by ourselves and then a big wedding where we are going to say all the things we say we are too shy to say anyway.

Jaya: Yeah I agree. Though, I totally understand not wanting to say these personal things in front of a lot of people!

Victoria: Yeah, so then, don’t and just elope, and leave it at that!!!

Jaya: Right, or have a big party afterwards, but just have it be a reception, not the ceremony part.

Victoria: Yeah, and don’t dress up in a wedding dress, maybe? I mean, I get it, but I think it’s sort of weird.

Jaya: My parents did that. They got married in my grandparent’s living room with really close family,  and then a few months later held a party at a restaurant. But there was no “ceremony” at the restaurant.

Victoria: Yeah, for sure. And like, my parents planned a full-on wedding with family flying in from across the country at a church and everything…in 6 weeks. So it can be done if you are in a hurry, but maybe you have to buy a dress off the rack and don’t get the whole wedding dress shopping “experience” and tons of food tastings and looking at venues and stuff. You just find something open and you do it. Plenty of corporate type events are planned with only a month or two of notice.

Jaya: This whole debate ties into this “haters gonna hate” culture that I find frustrating.  Everyone is saying “oh who cares about the haters, you do you.” And most of the time I am VERY “you do you” on things. But here, no one is hating just to be mean to you. It’s because there are legitimate concerns you may not have considered. If you consider them and still wanna do this, go ahead!! But I don’t think you should be shocked that some people are confused if you have two ceremonies.

Victoria: It sort of seems like a freedom of speech argument to me- like you are free to do whatever crazy thing you want, but everyone is also free to not attend.

Jaya: You’re setting up this thing where you’re either lying to your family, or changing the thing they’re trying to come to. And yes, the actual, legal change is not what people are there to celebrate. No one is in the room when you sign the marriage certificate. I guess that’s what confuses me on the other end. You’re there to celebrate the couple’s love or whatever, so whether they sign the document that day or weeks before is not really the point, right?

Victoria: I mean, I think people are happy to CELEBRATE even if the actual marriage occurred previously….but I do think a lot of people object to watching a “fake” ceremony. And I really do think that there is a limit of the amount of time after the wedding that people are still in a celebratory mood. 6 months might be close to the top….if everyone has already seen you and congratulated you and started treating you like a married person…it starts to get like…what are we celebrating again, didn’t we already do this? If in their minds, they have already celebrated your marriage they aren’t going to be interested in doing it again.

Jaya: Ahhh yeah. Definitely. And I mean, you don’t have to tell everyone you got “technically” married. Your “real” anniversary is not really of much importance to everyone else, and I really understand the serenity that can come with knowing it’s already “done” by the time the big day comes.

Victoria: Yeah…I mean….I would not not tell people…it seems too close to lying to me.

Jaya: Yeah that’s the other thing too.

Victoria: I get that people get hurt that some of their guests might not want to travel long distances to come to the celebration. But this is a really really new thing in the wedding “industry” and a looooooot of people, especially in the older generation, just do not understand and will not place the same importance on the celebration as the “actual” wedding.

Jaya: However much the “technical” marriage matters to you, it’ll probably mean something to other people (or maybe not)! And you’re free to figure out what works for you and your circle but like, if I had just gone to City Hall and not told my mom, she would have been so upset, even if she had a chance to “celebrate my love” on a different day. And I would have felt awful about not telling my family or friends we had done that. I couldn’t keep that secret.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly, and I mean, I have never actually encountered it myself, and I have thought about it a LOT and I STILL don’t know what I would choose to do when presented with such a situation. I guess it would depend on the couple. But then again…I really like parties and get bad FOMO.

Jaya: Hahaha, I think it also depends on what the small, private ceremony is like. If, like this woman, it’s the two of you on top of a mountain wanting a private moment that’s self-solemnized (which can only be done in some states), totally. If it’s you and 10 family members, but then you want a bigger thing later, that just seems like two weddings. This is the ultimate case of like, you really can do whatever you want, just understand that people bring their own expectations to these things.

Victoria: Although I don’t get, if you must have a private moment, just make your fake non-legal vows then and then do the legal vows on the day you will celebrate with everyone. Maybe this is why I am not a relationship person.

Jaya: Hahahaha, that’s true! The meaning behind the vows isn’t about legalities.

Victoria: Yeah, and if you don’t REALLY care, then do it when people do care? It just seems so hard to keep all these dates straight- like the day we got married and the day we got really married? And who did we tell and who did we not tell?

Jaya: I was asking some friends about this, who got married 5 years ago so she could stay in this country but had their actual wedding last summer and yeah, they consider their anniversary the technical date 5 years ago. But I understand the desire for the actual wedding, because you know, ceremony and religion and such are important to us.

Victoria: Yeah, but then, why not do it sooner? I mean, once you’ve legally tied yourselves together, you should be PRETTY sure that you really want to be married.

Jaya: Hahaha true, yeah I have no idea with them, but their circle was all happy and supportive, which is all that matters.

Victoria: It seems way scarier to me to be legally bound than just lovey and religiously. Like if you just have a “fake” (for lack of a better word) religious and love ceremony, you can break it off at any time! But the legal ceremony has SERIOUS real life consequences. And so many of these double wedding stories brush it off so much like, “oh get the boring part out of the way.”

Jaya: Yeah, I think what confuses me is the having two ceremonies part. If you want to do your ceremony privately and have it as Your Moment, that makes total sense. And then like, go out and invite people to a party and dance. But having a second, “fake” ceremony, even though what you are saying and feeling is obviously real, sort of defeats the point of “oh we’re too shy to say stuff in public.”

Victoria: Yeah, and like, I get it for people who HAD to get married in a rush…but I still kind of feel like you can invite whoever can come and make it special and then just have the celebration later, without the re-do.

Jaya: Do you think this is part of the dreaded WIC? The idea that it’s not “official” unless there is the big wedding?

Victoria: Yeah..I kind of do. Like there are SO MANY stories of people’s parents and grandparents just getting married. Even tons of “golden era” Hollywood stars and Presidents and stuff just got married in a simple suit (the bride!) and had a tiny cake to celebrate and just called it done.

Jaya: I think it’s good to realize it’s not just the couple that the wedding industry affects. Even if you and your spouse are fine with eloping or something, you have your family or best friends telling you you need to have a wedding, and then you feel guilty and it leads to this.

Victoria: Hahah yeah, I think there might be starting to be a bit of a backlash. It seems like there are a lot more elopement stories on wedding sites recently. And I have known a few girls who got married fairly quickly for whatever reason, and they did super simple things at the registry office and as far as I’ve seen, have no plans to have a big thing.

Jaya: I guess I just feel like the idea of eloping and then holding a party later is already a thing that’s done. And no one could blame you. But having two ceremonies (unless one is legal and one is religious, like they do in France) comes off as a bit false. Though I do have a cousin that sort of did this. She and her husband got married six months before their wedding to get him on health insurance. But the wedding was already being planned. And anyway it was a Hindu ceremony, so no one knows what the vows are anyway, it’s in Sanskrit. And I found out and there was no part of me that was like “Goodness I’ve been lied to! I certainly won’t show up!”

Victoria: Yeah, somehow I find religious ceremonies a bit different? Like the Catholic Church for one, already has a ceremony set up for exactly this situation, and you are actually supposed to have your civil marriage blessed if you didn’t get married in the church. But like….maybe tone down the whole white poofy dress thing? And the bridesmaids and the whole hullaballoo? I think a lot of problems can be avoided by really examining why you are doing things. Like, are you having a ceremony because your religion requires it or do you just want everyone to watch? Or do you think everyone expects it but you actually don’t care? Or do you just want to wear a big white dress and have a ton of attention? Granted, I think people in the last category are doing the worst and are the least likely to examine their motives.

Jaya: Uhhh I was totally like “when else in my life am I gonna get to wear a sparkle dress and get my makeup done?”

Victoria: Hahahahah, but you also didn’t rush down to City Hall to get married ahead of time. I mean, it’s a perfectly legit desire. But like, if you want the wedding and not just the marriage, you kind of have to play by the rules.

Jaya: There were many moments where we were totally ready to run to City Hall but we realized it wouldn’t have felt right without all our people there. Like, that was more important to us, even though it was frustrating and intimidating. Also, on a practical note, I will say having private time after the ceremony is a really good time for all those personal vows you don’t wanna say in front of people.

Victoria: Yeah! There’s no reason why your wedding can’t accommodate all that. Like, I’m shy, so I will probably stick to super traditional non-fussy vows.

Jaya: My husband and I took ten minutes after the ceremony to just chill in a room alone and let it all sink in. And while our vows were things we chose and things we meant, they weren’t hyper-personal to our lives our relationship. So in those moments alone, we got to say things that were just for us, and it was great.

Victoria: Awwwwww

Jaya: And yeah in a lot of ways that felt more “real” than the signing the certificate. I guess though, my thing is that as a host you should be honest with your guests, and let them make up their minds about things. And you might say it’s none of their business when you get married, or if you elope, or anything like that, but I mean…you did invite them to your wedding, you’re sort of making it their business.