Category Archives: Advice

Talking About Height Differences

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It’s a metaphor, get it? [Via Wikimedia Commons]

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

So I can’t sleep and  for some reason I thought of the most random etiquette question. I know it’s rude to walk in between people having a conversation without saying “excuse me” or whatever ( like people at work having convo in the narrow hallway or something), but what if I’m short enough to walk between the people without obstructing their line of vision between one another? Similarly, it’s totally rude for people to have conversations over my head right? 

Sincerely,

Very Short

 

Official Etiquette:

There doesn’t seem to be much out there addressing this specific sort of question, but of course talking over a shorter person’s head is rude!

 

Our Take:

Jaya: When you are short and passing between two people having a conversation, basically you want to give them a heads up, not because you can’t slip between them, but because they might be having a private conversation and it’d be rude of you just to zoom in between them.

Victoria: Yeah, plus they might notice you and be like, omg so weird.

Jaya: And like, among friends, obviously tall people should be open to including everyone in a conversation, just like anyone else. It’d be just as rude if two short people shut out a tall person.

Victoria: Yeah, and also like, if they are teasing you, then its teasing, and you have to decide if you like that kind of teasing or won’t tolerate it. I’ve had friends do that to me and I don’t care, because they were just being silly. But if it really bothers you or it’s excessive, just tell them! They are your friends!

 

Reception Only Invitations

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Victoria's great-grandmother at her wedding in 1906

Victoria’s great-grandmother at her wedding in 1906

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

I was hoping to get some advice regarding wedding guest list etiquette. My fiancé and I are getting married in a very small chapel. It is a historical chapel that only has 6 long pews and we will be adding some chairs in the back. The chapel is tucked away in a private wooded area…quite secluded and intimate. Our guest list for our wedding ceremony is 50 people. However, our guest list for our meal and wedding reception is 150. Do you think it is bad etiquette to invite people to one part of the evening and not the other?

Thank you,

Confused bride

 

Official Etiquette:

In my edition of Amy Vanderbilt’s New Complete Book of Etiquette, she says that it’s fine to have a large reception for an intimate wedding. The wording she suggests is:

Mr. and Mrs. Lastname

request the pleasure of your company

at the wedding breakfast of their daughter

Daughter

and

Mr. Firstname Middlename Hisname

on Day, Date

at Location

 

Our Take:

Jaya: Okay so I have my Emily Post book out and am looking for what to do about inviting people to the reception and not the ceremony.

Victoria: Yeah, I know that Miss Manners says you should come up with your approximate guest list first thing to get an idea of the numbers you are working with and THEN find a venue that fits them all. She is a people above all person. I think technically though, you can do this, though I personally do not like it.

Jaya: I know in a lot of cultures it’s pretty common, so I think if it’s that situation, everyone already knows the drill. Okay, Emily Post says basically that this is a way to have a wedding, and that two invitations are needed, so the wording is clear that some people are only invited to the reception. I mean, I think that’s why in a lot of “traditional” invitation packages there’s a separate card with the reception info.

Victoria: Ahhh yeah, that makes sense.

Jaya: I don’t think it’s inherently bad etiquette, though I think that if it’s not what’s usually done in your circle, no matter how carefully you do it, some people may feel jilted. You’re automatically setting up a very clear hierarchy, and if that’s not “what’s done” some people will have a hard time understanding it.

Victoria: Yeah, for sure. And for a lot of people, seeing the ceremony IS important. I actually did go to a wedding where the ceremony was separate and private, but the reception was the next day. So it didn’t feel like as big a deal? I was also about 15 so i don’t think I cared that much

Jaya: Haha right. And yeah, looking at various message boards, everyone has different opinions on this.

Victoria: Yeah, I think that’s why I would tread really carefully. Although, it sounds like it’s already a done deal for her. But for me, I would just avoid any possibility of drama and just have my ceremony somewhere that could fit all my guests.

Jaya: Yeah, so if that’s the case, the invitations should make it very clear that they’re being invited to the reception in honor of the couple. And be prepared to answer questions

Victoria: So many questions.

Jaya: (god so many of these are like “we want everyone at the ceremony but we can’t afford everyone at the reception.” don’t do that!!!)

Victoria: Oh man, it’s situations like this that make me think you should really consider all sides of your guest list and wedding choices before putting any money down anywhere. Like really think through everything you are planning on and what any possible consequences will be. Like that APW post I was reading recently where so many people were like “I wish I knew that having an unconventional venue would mean that I would be responsible for all kinds of permits and tents, and chairs, and floors, and tables, and lights, and portapoties and everything.”

Jaya: Right. We don’t know this bride’s family, or her reasons for wanting the ceremony in such an intimate chapel when their guest list is three times the size. But we’re trusting she has them. And I think she just has to be prepared to explain them to the reception-only guests if anyone asks. Interestingly, a few people on these forums are saying the ceremony is the part that should be open for everyone, while the reception should only be for close family and friends. So, you know, everyone has opinions.

Victoria: Yeah, I think technically weddings in a church are open to all regular parishioners? I would assume she has already dealt with all of the big issues. but I would definitely tell people in the planning stages who are thinking of doing this to talk with their families and really get an idea of what kind of fallout if any they are looking at.

Jaya: Yeah. Also, this might be just me, but 50 guests seems sort of large to get away with “intimate” wedding. I’ve had friends who got married with like, 5-10 people by a JOP, and then held a dinner for everyone after. That makes more sense. 50 people is already the size lots of people have for their full wedding.

Victoria: Haha yeah, definitely. Although, if it’s only 1/3 of her guest list, I guess that’s not SO bad. But I think when you get to the point that 1/2 your guest list is invite to the ceremony and 1/2 isn’t, then it starts to become a bit murky. And if you are only excluding, say, 1/4 of the guests, I think that’s full on rude.

Jaya: Right

Victoria: I mean, it’s all totally subjective. But it’s the situation of all the kids in the class invited to the birthday except for one…it becomes hurtful. And hurting people is bad.

Jaya: Okay, so I think no, this is not inherently rude. But they should start explaining to their friends and family, get the info out there, and see how people react. I think people are much more forgiving if they’ve had a conversation about why this is happening than just getting the invitation and seeing where they fall in the hierarchy.

Victoria: Yeah. Until they think they should be higher up in the hierarchy.

Jaya: Right. And we don’t know their family, but there is definitely a chance that would happen. Offbeat Bride has a great point, that in a reception only invitation, there’s no need to mention the ceremony. You don’t want to bring up the thing people are missing. “We love you but you can’t come to this part — but we still love you … no seriously!” It’s just rubbing salt into a wound that people didn’t even know they had.

Victoria: Although, if there are 50 people there who are all discussing the ceremony that they JUST witnessed…It’s hard to keep it on the DL. Or if they don’t know people were excluded, they’ll be like, why weren’t you at the ceremony?

Jaya: Right. It’s a difficult balance between making sure everyone knows what’s up and also hiding the fact that, well, some people just didn’t make the cut.

Victoria: Yeah. That’s why I don’t like it…its too hard to control that many people. I mean, not control but if you have 5 people at the ceremony, its obvious that its very exclusive.

Jaya: Yes. Which is why I think this bride has to be careful. 5 out of 150 is exclusive. 50 out of 150 is not really? Or maybe it is. It’s hard to draw a line somewhere like that. Okay, so like, hard advice, what should she do if she’s already decided this is what it’s gonna be?

Victoria: Okay, yes, and I want to reiterate, that there’s no real judgment from us about her choice in this. But yeah, definitely separate invitations with clear wording for those attending just the reception something like, so and so invite you to celebrate their marriage at a dinner and dancing (or whatever) reception in PLACE at TIME on DATE. Whereas the ceremony guests would get something like so and so invite you to celebrate their marriage at PLACE at TIME on DATE, reception at PLACE to follow. And I might be so bold as to put something specific on a wedding website like a ceremony page that says “we will be having an intimate wedding ceremony prior to the big party with everyone we love.”

Jaya: Hmm, do you think that’d just be drawing attention to the fact that certain people aren’t invited? Or maybe people invited to the reception would be confused if they went to the website, and saw the ceremony thing? Like, they’d think they could go to that too?

Victoria: It might, but if you’re going to do it, I feel like its better to be up front (yet vague about how intimate) rather than let people find out by calling Aunt Suzy to discuss the wedding and finding out that SHE is going to a ceremony.

Jaya: That’s true. But yes that’s another point–get your family on board.

Victoria: I mean, in the ceremony page, you wouldn’t list the location…

Jaya: I can forsee a lot of aunts being like “well of course the cousins can come to the ceremony” without running it by the couple.

Victoria: Yes, if your parents aren’t 100% with you on this, you are going to have a struggle.

Jaya: Hell that happened to me at the rehearsal dinner. Luckily it didn’t really matter but, yeah.

Victoria: We had some friends get married and one of their moms was inviting random people left and right.

Jaya: Hahaha yuuuup

Victoria: Yeah, I mean, I think that the moral of the story is that the more you go out of “the usual” (the usual for your circle)  the more time you are going to have to spend explaining things. And the more you are going to have to have a fully united front with your families. And the more likely are to have drama and or hurt feelings.

Jaya: Right, and you just have to balance what’s worth it to you.

How to Deal When Someone Doesn’t Remember You

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None of these people are going to remember anyone they met.

None of these people are going to remember anyone they met.

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

Would you consider writing a post about what to do when someone you’ve met before reintroduces themselves? Do you tell them you’ve met previously? Do you just smile and go with it? I imagine there’s different protocol for the person doing this whom you’ve only met once before, compared to the person who’s ‘met’ you for the fifth time.

Sincerely,

Introduced Again and Again

 

Official Etiquette

Miss Manners says that you just politely remind people that you have met.

 

Our Take

Jaya: Was it you don’t remember meeting someone, or they don’t remember meeting you?

Victoria: They don’t remember meeting you was the question, but we can do both.

So this happens to me allll the time.

Jaya: Absolutely, on both sides. I’m usually not offended if someone doesn’t remember meeting me.

There are a lot of people out there! I’m not special

Victoria: Haha yeah! I think it’s fine, especially when you are meeting people in a crowd or its a dark bar situation.

Jaya: Yeah exactly If it’s going on like 5-6 times I’m also usually not offended, it just signals that I’m not gonna be best friends with this person, which is fine, I got friends. I’d be more offended if it were in a business situation.

Victoria: I think it’s totally fine to say “oh we met at such and such a place.” But I hate it when people are like “we’ve met” and are really short about it. It’s like, jeez sorry.

Jaya: Yeah, give someone a break! Plus that doesn’t help me, now I just know we’ve met but have no idea where.

Victoria: Oh and sometimes if it’s been a long time, and I knew they probably wouldn’t remember me, I won’t even say anything. I’ll just be like, it’s nice to meet you.

Jaya: Definitely. Also, if I get a sense I’ve met someone before but forget their name, I like having my husband or a friend nearby so I can be like “oh this is my husband Matt” and then he goes “Hi, nice to meet you, what was your name again?” and then boom, I remember their name.

Victoria: Hahah nice trick. Okay and then if you are the one who didn’t remember meeting them, I think it’s nice to apologize and then say something about being terrible with faces or whatever.

Jaya: Definitely. Or if they bring up the night you met and you remember it being particularly drunken/dark/hectic, mention that.

Victoria: Yes! Now, if this is like the 6th time you’ve forgotten them…..maybe just run away?

Jaya: But yes, if it’s the first time it’s happened, I don’t think you can really get mad. But yeah any more it’s like, this person is probably a jerk and you can avoid them. Or maybe has face blindness. Check that they don’t have face blindness first.

Victoria: And maybe do the super businessy thing of proactively saying peoples names when you meet them so you remember them.

Jaya: Ugh that never works for me. I do that every time I meet someone and repeat their name in my haed and then it’s immediately gone.

Victoria: Haha yeah, I don’t do names either. I just never say anyone’s name unless I’m yelling across a room to get their attention.

Victoria : Did you know that the princess of Sweden is face blind? That must be a nightmare in that position.

Jaya: I love how you just know the princess of Sweden is face blind.

Victoria: I am full of fun facts.

I think also if you forget someone but you sort of think you have met before you can just be like, hey how are you????

And then later be like omg this is so embarrassing I am blanking on your name.

Jaya: Yes! I pull “nice to see you” a lot when I’m unsure.

Victoria: Yeah, I am pretty good with faces but not with names.

Jaya: Definitely. I don’t know, I feel like everyone goes through this, so it’s in everyone’s best interest to be understanding when it happens.

Victoria: Yeah, totally. And I mean, if someone is just being obtuse about it and you’ve met ten times, just ignore them and write them off as someone awful that you don’t want to deal with.

Jaya: Absolutely, there are better things to focus on that one person who can’t be bothered with you.

Though again, if it’s in a professional setting it makes it harder.

Like if a partner at your law firm refuses to learn your name.

Victoria: Yeah, I was going to say, if it’s business and they are senior to you, just keep firmly introducing yourself to them through a smile with gritted teeth.

If they are junior to you, get them fired.

jk jk

Does No Thank You Note Mean My Gift Was Lost?

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A high toned burglar steals wedding presents [By H.C. Miner Litho Co, New York [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons]

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

I cannot remember if you have tackled this question before, but it stands as the flip-side of the “did my friends not get me a wedding gift” post.
 
I have now had it happen on two separate occasions that I have sent a wedding gift via online registry and have not received a thank you note. At this point, I am mainly curious as to whether or not they actually got what I sent them. Is there any way to inquire about this without sounding snippy?  (My parents were invited to the second wedding as well, have not received a note, and my mom keeps bugging me about it. Please help!)

Sincerely,
No note or no gift?

Official Etiquette:
Miss Manners says that it’s totally fine to inquire whether a gift was received.

Our Take:

Victoria: Okay, so I really love this question because it has happened to me TWICE! And I have handled it differently both times.

The first was like hers, I sent a gift from the registry and never heard a thing. And I basically…did nothing. Because I didn’t know what to do and I wasn’t THAT close to the couple. And it was a long time ago so I had not yet matured into the etiquette person I am now.

And the second was with YOU! And it was kind of silly because I gave you guys the gift in person so I knew you had it. But also I knew you were being prompt with your TY notes, and when I didn’t receive one I was like, hmm that’s weird. So I very boldly mentioned it to you and we determined that it had been lost in the mail.

Jaya: And then it was the USPS that cursed me!

Victoria: Hahah yesss.

Jaya: So yes, I think both of those highlight a great benefit of the tradition of thank you notes. Not only is it a thanks, but it’s a flat out acknowledgement that you got something. And since most everyone does online registries, there are just more chances that something will get messed up.

Victoria: Yeah, and that packages will get stolen from your apartment building or front porch.

Jaya: Yes! So for her, I think approaching it in just this way is great. You can email the couple something like “Hey, I just wanted to check that you received the gift I sent. I ordered it through the registry but I wanted to confirm it actually got to you”

Victoria : Yes, exactly. Maybe add something about UPS/USPS getting more unreliable these days.

Jaya: I don’t think that sounds snippy

Victoria: Did that happen to you at all? Although, I guess since you did simple registry it probably wasn’t an issue.

Jaya: Yeah, I can’t remember any instances where we didn’t get a gift and someone checked in on that. Though a couple people actually didn’t get their invitations in the mail, which we found out when we called for RSVPs.

Victoria: Hahah yeah, I feel like every bride has a story about that. There’s also the flip side to this- where you really thought a certain guest would get you a gift but didn’t and you wonder if maybe it got lost. I read a really great suggestion recently that, a couple weeks after the last TY note goes out, post on your social media pages something like “all the thank you notes have gone out, please let us know if you don’t get one, we had several invitations get lost in the mail so we want to know if our thank yous went missing too”

That way anyone who was too shy to mention that they didn’t get a note will be able to speak up and you can find out if any gifts went missing.

Jaya: Oooh that’s a great idea!

Do You Have to Send Thank You Notes For Condolences?

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[Via Wikimedia Commons]

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

 Firstly I want to say Uncommon-Courtesy is amazing, and I love it, and you’re both geniuses.

I have a question about thank you notes, specifically thank you notes after a funeral. My father passed away, and my sister and I were the primary mourners; we’re both in our early 20s and had really good intentions about sending notes to thank people for flowers, mass cards, and the donations made in our Dad’s name. I feel like our age gave us SOME leeway on response time, but it’s now been six months and though we have all the information and note cards and addresses it’s been difficult to imagine writing them until now.

I guess my question is, how bad is this? Is it too late to send a note for this kind of circumstance, or should we include an aside apologizing for our delay? I hate the idea that a bunch of people think we’re unforgivably rude, but I guess I’m also nervous about bringing up a pretty terrible occurrence after so much time has passed. What would Uncommon Courtesy do?

Sincerely,

Mourning

Official Etiquette:

The Emily Post Institute says thank you notes are required for condolence notes.

Our Take:

A caveat: it turns out we were wrong, as you can see from the Official Etiquette section, thank you notes are required for all gifts and flowers. However, from reading other etiquette sites, it looks like a lot of people don’t actually expect to receive them in the way the expect thank you notes for wedding/birthday/baby gifts, so we still stand behind saying that if it’s too much for you, you should skip it.

Victoria: We are geniuses!

Jaya: We are!!!

Victoria: So I’m curious what your first thought is.

Jaya: Okay. So I’m actually not that familiar with funeral thank you note etiquette. I’ve never had to go through this. But I’d think that people’d be really forgiving, since you’re grieving. And that maybe this should be someone else’s responsibility.

Victoria: Haha yeah. So I’m not 100% sure and will look it up later (and it will be fun to see if I’m wrong [ED: I was wrong!]), but I BELIEVE that you are not obligated to send thank you notes for condolence notes/gifts. It’s certainly nice, but yeah, the point is to make you feel better about your loss, not put an extra burden on you.

Jaya: Definitely. So I mean, fuck aaaaanyone who tries to make you feel bad about this. Also, I sort of agree with her that if enough time has passed that no one is actively grieving anymore, it might be worse as a reminder? I’m not sure, but I could see how that could happen.

Victoria: Yeah, totally. Although, if she’s already compiled notes and addresses and stuff, it certainly does no harm to send them.

Jaya: That’s true. If the notes are there, you might as well send them. But she and her sister have no reason to feel guilty.