Author Archives: Uncommon Courtesy

Gifts for Second Weddings

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FYI I'm getting bored of wedding pictures so have this tattooed Pict lady instead

FYI I’m getting bored of wedding pictures so have this tattooed Pict lady instead

Greetings!

I have a question regarding wedding gift etiquette. This spring, I will be attending the second wedding of a friend. I was in the first wedding, enjoying her bachelorette party and gifting her at her shower and at the actual wedding.
What is your opinion on an appropriate wedding gift for a second wedding? They are not doing a registry and only have a honeymoon fund. Should my gift for this wedding be equal to that of the first? 
Hoping the ladies of Uncommon Courtesy can advise on the appropriate etiquette here.
Sincerely,
Second Time at the Rodeo

Official Etiquette
Peggy Post says that guests who gave gifts for a first marriage have no obligation to give another gift.

Our Take

Victoria: Okay, so I looked it up, and all the official etiquette people say that you don’t have to give a gift for a second wedding if you gave one for the first.

Jaya: This seems so strange to me. First off, it may be the first wedding for one of the couple.

Victoria: Yeah, and theoretically, they would still get presents from all the 1st wedding person’s friends and family, plus all the new friends. Just not the ones who went to the first wedding. I mean, this does seem to be a holdover from the days when a second wedding was supposed to be very, very small. (Second wedding of the bride anyway! A whole other big problematic issue.)

Jaya: Yeah! It’s working under the assumption that a second wedding is a thing to be kept quiet, and that you still need to be punished for getting divorced. (I assume you’re not chastised for marrying again if you were widowed?)

Victoria: I mean, I don’t think its to be kept “quiet” it’s just that its “unseemly” to have a big to do when all your friends and family have already done that with you. I have never read it as “punishment.” Usually just as, you are generally a bit older and to a degree, the whole poofy white princess thing looks a bit ridiculous.

Jaya: I always sorta read “unseemly” as the flip side to punishment. Like, just saying it’s a bad thing for you to be doing this.

Victoria: Ahh thats so interesting that we have two totally different reads on it! That would never have occurred to me.

Jaya: Maybe not quite punishment, but that you should feel bad if you want anything more than something really small. That it’s still shameful.

Victoria: I mean, I guess I always felt in the olden days, the second wedding was more likely to be of someone who was widowed, not divorced, so the shame doesn’t really come in. It’s more that those huge type of weddings are expensive, and previously your parents were always the host of your wedding, but you’ve been living as an adult for quite a long time and wouldn’t expect your parents to host it again. And not to mention the idea of gifts being to set up the household of a young couple, and a second marriage usually doesn’t need that set up.

Jaya: But yeah, that has completely shifted now, in that probably a lot more second marriages resulting from divorces and also that you can throw a big wedding for yourself. Like it’s just working on a lot of outdated information.

Victoria: Yeah, no I know, I’m just saying this is the root where all the “second wedding” etiquette comes from, for everyone’s edification.

Jaya: Haha totally. Okay, so the letter says nothing about divorce or widowing or even the size of this wedding.

Victoria: True. So for ME, I am not particularly one to give extravagant wedding presents anyway, so I would probably just do what was in the budget and that would be that. But like, if you usually gave like $500 for a wedding present, I would say you would be well within the bounds of reasonableness to give a more token gift the second time.

Jaya: I can’t tell where I stand on this. Like, say it’s a divorce. There’s no guarantee my friend has the $500 thing I gave them the first time around anyway. If they’re just doing a honeymoon fund, chances are they’re pretty casual about the whole affair and don’t need a ton of gifts. But I’d also hate my friend to start their marriage thinking I somehow wasn’t as enthusiastic about it this time around.

Victoria: Lol well I kind of think it’s on the couple to not assume that the size of the gift pertains to the enthusiasm about their marriage. You know? Like, it’s not about that. And it sounds like she was in the wedding last time, did the whole bachelorette AND shower and the whole thing. That is a TON of money that you’ve given to your friend already

Jaya: Oh totally, I guess it depends on who the “toning down” is coming from. I feel like if I ever had a second marriage I’d be like, fuck it, let’s elope. But I would hate to ever be in that position wanting a large, fun wedding and having everyone around me telling me it’s bad form. Or everyone to be like “well we would have gotten you something, but we already did the first time…”

Victoria: I guess I just kind of think it’s a bit outrageous to expect that kind of generosity from your friends twice (or three times? or four times?). You know? Like, it’s very unkind. I mean, I am on board with hosting whatever kind of party you want.

Jaya: It probably depends on who you are. if you’re the type of person to use a wedding, or any event, to milk gifts out of your friends then I probably don’t wanna give you that much anyway. But hey, if you’ve had a rough time and are entering a second marriage and want a big, fun party, even if you’ve already had a big, fun party, then yeah I wanna get you something.

Victoria: Yeah, totally! And I actually really think you should at least get something to mark the occasion.

Jaya: I don’t know, I see a lot of people feeling ashamed to celebrate a second marriage at all. And I just wouldn’t want to add to that feeling.

Victoria: :(, I guess I have never really gotten that impression from (okay the limited number of) people I know who got remarried. I mean, I guess it ties into my feelings about extravagant wedding gifts anyway just being sort of unnecessary and getting a bit out of hand.

Jaya: Absolutely, and ongoing wedding extravagance is a whole issue in and of itself. Okay but anyway back to the present, I totally think she can get something equal to whatever she got her friend the first time, if she wants, or donate that much to the honeymoon fund.

Victoria: I mean, I think she can do whatever she feels is best, basically. Like she is within bounds of etiquette to do little or nothing, but it’s also perfectly fine to do as much as she wants. And it is probably nicer to do something rather than nothing. And if they have a honeymoon fund, I would definitely go with that rather than trying to pick out a physical gift since by not registering they are hinting that they would prefer not to get physical gifts.

Email Greetings

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Unlike paper mail, emails don’t need a salutation each time.

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

At what point in an e-mail exchange can you start omitting the greeting/salutation?

Sincerely,

Tired of Endless Salutations

Official Etiquette:

The Emily Post Institute says you only need to use a salutation in the first reply.

Our Take:

Victoria: Ooooh, this question came from Twitter.

Jaya: Ooooh, I think it depends on who you’re contacting and their tone.

Victoria: Haha yeah. I mean in my formal business emails I almost never drop it but with friends I drop it pretty much right away. Like, sometimes the initial email will have it but then it isn’t used after that

Jaya: If someone else drops it I will too. But also if they seem pretty friendly I will. That’s been happening recently with research for the cookbook. [Ed: Jaya is writing a book about historical recipies!]

Victoria: Oh yeah! That kind of cold emailing for sources must be really interesting.

Jaya: Like if after one exchange they use a lot of exclamation points and are enthusiastic, I’ll get more casual.

Victoria; Definitely. And i’ve noticed that busier people definitely drop it faster- also they are usually the more “important” person in the conversation.

Jaya: It’s funny, I think we have this idea of older people being very finicky about “professionalism” in email.

Victoria: Haha I think older people are a lot more likely to be short!

Jaya: Yeah!! And to format it weird!

Victoria: Haha yeah.

Jaya: But yeah email is weird; I tend to just take the tone of whoever I’m emailing with.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly. Although, if you were emailing with someone super important, like say, the President, I would recommend keeping the more formal tone even if the other person drops it

Jaya: Oh definitely.

Victoria: Or if in business, they are the client.

 

What Do I Do With This Non-Invitation?

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Is it okay to do this before it happens?

Is it okay to do this before it happens? [Via]

Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

I have a friend who is getting married. I don’t see her very often, so I found out about the relationship and the engagement via Facebook (which is fine, that is what Facebook is for). Via social media I also know that her wedding will be small and intimate, and that they can’t afford to invite everyone they would like, which I totally understand, and I did not expect to be invited, as we  don’t see each other very often. Today I got what I guess is an announcement card.  It’s not a save-the-date, it basically says “we’re getting married on X date but you’re not invited, we’ll send pictures”.  I was resigned to not being invited, but when I saw the envelope for a minute I thought maybe I had made the cut, so seeing that I hadn’t was a wee bit of a let-down.  But I have also never encountered a formal “you’re not invited to our wedding, but here’s when it is” card before, and I wondered what you guys thought of them and what the etiquette is as the recipient of one.

Sincerely,
Not Invited

OFFICIAL ETIQUETTE

According to the Emily Post Institute: “Printed or handwritten announcements are sent to those left off of the guest list, or to acquaintances or business associates who might wish to hear the news. Announcements carry no obligation to return a gift, and they are never sent to anyone who has received an invitation. Ideally, they should be mailed the day after the wedding but may be sent up to several months later.” The bolding is theirs, so you know they mean business.

OUR TAKE

Jaya: So this is wrong, yes? So very wrong.

Victoria: Traditionally you CAN send an announcement after the wedding, to anyone who was interested but perhaps not invited, for whatever reason. But it’s really fallen out of favor. And you definitely don’t send it before, because thats like na-na we are having a wedding and you aren’t invited. I guess after it seems better because it’s already done, but it still seems like a weird concept to do a formal, printed announcement. Everyone now will know from Facebook pictures anyway.

Jaya: Yeah, it definitely seems like a tradition that used to be very practical but isn’t really necessary because of modern changes. Before, it’d be really good to let people know about new addresses or name changes, but the point was the information, not the way the information came. I wonder if they somehow think this is akin to an announcement in the paper, but just for people they know.

Victoria: I also wonder how common the wedding announcements really were to begin with, honestly. Just because there are official etiquette rules doesn’t mean people did it.

Jaya: That’s true! It may have worked backwards–a rule is written just in case you do it, and then everyone reads an etiquette book and thinks “Oh shit, I have to do this.”

Victoria: Also, people get really confused about announcements, even if they’re sent after! A lot of people think it means you have to send a gift, which you most certainly do not. I mean, you can if you want, but they should NEVER have registry information on them.

Jaya: I wonder if their sending this out has to do with guilt over having a small wedding. Like, this idea that you must explain yourself if you’re not inviting every person you’ve ever met. And I hope we can get over that idea.

Victoria: That’s a good point. Besides, if you really do feel guilty about say, not inviting the close group of friends you hang out with- it would be better to explain the situation on the phone or in person or something anyway.

Jaya: And yeah, the writer explains she had no presumptions of being invited anyway. Most people have a handle on who they’re really close to and who they’re not, and don’t get all butthurt about it.

Victoria: I would probably get this and be like “Well, I wasn’t expecting to go to your stinky wedding anyway :-P”

Do I Have to Reciprocate All Christmas Gifts?

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Dear Uncommon Courtesy,

So a friend of mine asked me for my address the other day so she could mail me a Christmas gift, and now I’m wondering if I’m obligated to reciprocate. We met online about five years ago but we’ve never actually spent time together in person. I know her interests very well and had some cute ideas right away, but I had no intent to get her something before she asked for my address. HOW HELP?

Sincerely,

Giftless and Feeling Guilty

Official Etiquette:

Miss Manners wrote a lovely essay about choosing which holiday traditions to celebrate while remaining thankful and polite about all overtures made to you. You can read it here.

Our Take:

Victoria: So basically the answer is yes, it’s totally fine not to give a gift in return if you weren’t going to in the first place.

Jaya: Totally. You know, thank her and everything, but it’s really out of the blue.

Victoria: Yeah, actually! This JUST happened to me.

Jaya: What!

Victoria: [Redacted] texted me and was like, “I broke the rules and got you a Christmas present because I happened to see the perfect thing and you aren’t allowed to get me something in return.”

But then again, there are some years that I do a small homemade Christmas present for all my friends and some years that I don’t and its all fine either way.

Jaya: Yeah, I think it depends on your friends and traditions, but I do think at some point we all end up agreeing that holiday presents are for family and like, really really close friends or a Secret Santa group or something.

Victoria: Yeah, although some people go totally nuts with gift giving. Like- there’s a part in Love Actually where Emma Thompson is wrapping gifts for her kids friends and I’ve always been so confused about why you would give Christmas gifts to random children.

Jaya: I think after a certain age, if you’re one of those people, you have to accept that as your thing and not everyone’s thing.

Victoria: Haha yeah, totally.

Jaya: Like, do it because you found something great for your friends, not because you’re trying to backhand pressure some gift-giving exchange onto people who don’t have the capacity or energy.

Victoria: Yessssss

Jaya: And you know, a million times, a gift is a gift. So Matt was on the phone with his mom the other day and asked if she wanted anything for Hanukkah, and she was like “of course not, Hanukkah is for children.” Which is sorta great, like it’s totally a kids holiday pumped up to compete with Christmas so Jewish kids don’t feel left out, but the adults know it’s for them. I sorta wish we could have a bit more of that sensibility all around. I mean I love gifts and holiday spirit and stuff but it does cause a lot of anxiety.

Victoria: Eh, I mean it depends. That whole “love languages thing.” One of my favorite parts of Christmas is exchanging gifts with my family and my family does tend to be very gifty. But yeah, not like, with the neighbors.

Jaya: Love languages is a good way to put it, as much as that concept isn’t perfect. I think here it totally works.

Victoria: Like, the rest of the “gift giving” times of the year are very one sided- one person gives and one person receives, whereas “Christmas” is more about the exchange. Haha which I just realized totally contradicts our advice that you don’t HAVE to give a gift in return.

Jaya: Hahahaha it does! I mean, the exchange is great if you’re predisposed to like the exchange or see it coming.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly. It’s very lovely with your family is what I’m saying.

Jaya: That’s the thing that throws me. Like, I’ve bought gifts for my parents and siblings and husband, because I spent Christmas morning with them. And we did the Secret Santa thing with friends, which was fun, but also totally voluntary, like, you didn’t have to sign up.

Victoria: Yeah! It was fun!

Jaya: Which I like more than just getting a gift out of nowhere from someone I’ve never met. I mean I understand internet friendships are 100% real friendships, I have many, but still.

Victoria: Oh right, this person is an internet friend. Does she say specifically that she is sending a gift. Because maybe its just a Christmas card? Oh yeah she does. Lol. Read the question, Victoria.

Jaya: Hahaha

Victoria: Well, I would say, just comfort yourself knowing that its probably something small. And maybe it is Anthrax! This is a person from the internet after all.

Jaya: Hahahahaha! So right like, holiday cards are another thing. Some people love sending out holiday cards, and some don’t, but it’s not like if you get one you have to make one to send back. I always think I’m gonna do them and then I remember it’s extra money for me to send something most people are gonna throw out.

Victoria: Lol yeah, I want to do Christmas cards, but whoops, I did not. If it comforts you, my mom always displays all the cards they get for the whole month. And my sister and I go through and make fun of the Christmas letters, so its not such a waste.

Jaya: Hahaha that’s good. Yeah I think I always forget until I get one, and then obvs it’s too late.

Victoria: Haha yeah. My sister and I did them last year, but she did all the work sooooo…Okay, this year I will buy cards on clearance in January and then I will do them. This is my resolution.

Is BYOB Tacky?

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Seems like a fun party. [Via Wikimedia Commons]

Dear Uncommon Courtesy

A good friend and his live-in girlfriend occasionally throw cocktail parties at their apartment for the holidays, each other’s birthdays, etc. While he and his girlfriend are not hedge fund partners, they do reasonably well for themselves as independent, gainfully-employed 20-somethings. More often than not, their party invitations will specify that although they will be serving a punch or specific cocktail of some sort, they would like all guests to BYOB. 

My question is twofold: First, how do I handle the hostess gift situation here? Do I double up and bring them a bottle of wine in addition to whatever I would like to imbibe at this party? Do I specify which is which? Because that seems like it could get awkward. Second, am I wrong in thinking that this is incredibly tacky of them? 

Basically, how can I best be a polite guest in a situation where I think the hosts are being less than polite themselves? 

Sincerely,

Flummoxed in NY 

Official Etiquette

Miss Manners sees BYOB as “a collegiate and internship form, suitable for people who have not yet mastered adult housekeeping and whose finances are so close to the edge that they cannot wait for the costs of socializing to be shared through eventual reciprocation.” She also suggests following along with what the rest of you social circles does and if no one brings their own beverage, then you know that it’s not the done thing and you aren’t going to have much luck trying to change it.

Our Take
Jaya: Uhh is BYOB tacky??
Victoria: LOL no. Or, maybe it sort of is? But it’s fine. And duh, you do not need to bring two things.
Jaya: Absolutely, BYOB negates a host gift. And I usually don’t bring a “host gift” for a run-of-the-mill party. Special occasions or being a house guest, sure, but I’ll usually bring a bottle of wine or text the host and ask if I can pick anything up. I have never considered BYOB tacky though, especially if you’re providing punch or some type of liquor, as these hosts seem to be doing.
Victoria: Thinking about it more, I think it depends. I can’t remember my parents ever throwing a BYOB party. I guess at a certain age and income level it just makes sense for the hosts to provide everything, though I do not know what those levels are.
Jaya: It also depends how the hosts phrase it. When hosting a party, I’ll often say “we’ll have snacks and some wine and liquor, but feel free to bring any food or booze you want.” But it’s not like I’d kick someone out for not bringing a six pack. I probably wouldn’t even notice.
Victoria: And if you’re in your 20s, maybe you throw parties because you’re the one with the biggest apartment, so it becomes a nice, central place to get everyone together. But yes, I always like to have enough for everyone, but if people bring things that’s fine too.
Jaya: Man, I just can’t bring myself to call this tacky though. BYOB, potlucks, these are all known quantities.
Victoria: Yeah, I wouldn’t call it tacky exactly.
Jaya: I’m a huge fan of BYOB actually. I just think it’s a great, efficient way to have a party. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve hosted a party with a “full bar” and been stuck with a bunch of stuff no one wanted. Or, people can be really picky about what they drink, so I’d rather they just bring something they know they want.
Victoria: Yeah, I think it’s great for more of a house party situation. But it’s definitely better to phrase it as “we have this, if you want to bring anything else, feel free” instead of making it a hard requirement. You really should provide enough punch/cocktails/wine for 1-2 drinks per guest, just a base level.
Jaya: Absolutely. I can’t tell what the hosts’ tone is from this letter, but I guess if LW wanted to test it they could just “forget” to bring something to the next party. Good hosts/friends would be like “oh no worries, we got stuff” or just not even mention it.
Victoria: Exactly. Though, if you plan on drinking a whole case of beer yourself, you should maybe bring it.
Jaya: It’s all just heavily contingent on your friend group and the social norms of drinking/hosting that exist within it.
Victoria: You know what I have encountered, that I do think is kind of tacky? House parties where the hosts charge admission.
Jaya: WHAT WHAT WHAT
Victoria: YES it’s a THING.
Jaya: Okay I have heard of rent parties? And I guess it’s like, if you’re spending $10 on a six pack or $10 on “admission,” you’re spending that money either way?
Victoria: Presumably the charge is to cover the alcohol, but then you don’t know if it’s going to be a fun party or if they have what you want to drink, and you might as well just go to a bar. Or if you spend $10 on a six pack, you at least know it’s beer you like.
Jaya: Okay, I do think this question sort of touches on the awkwardness that happens when an implied rule becomes explicit. I would not show up at a party without either a bottle of wine (or equivalent), or without checking with the host about if there were something I could bring. And when I am the host, my friends often show up with drinks or food, or call me asking if I need anything. It’s this nice exchange that most people silently agree to, so I can see how specifically saying BYOB disrupts that. It’s almost insulting–as if you wouldn’t think of bringing beer on your own. Is that reading too much into it?
Victoria: No, I think that makes sense. It’s like when my mom tells me to write a thank you note to my grandmother. Like yes, I know, I ALWAYS write a thank you note, why are you reminding me?
Jaya: But if I saw BYOB on an invitation, I would not be like “Mercy, this person thinks I have no manners!”
Victoria: Hahahah yeah. And you can always turn it down if you don’t want to BYOB.
Jaya: I cannot imagine the kind of person who would be so offended by the premise of BYOB that they’d refuse to go to their friend’s party. I mean you just gotta consider your own priorities there.
Victoria: And if you’re a host and have a specific theme/feel in mind, you should just provide everything yourself. Like if you’re having a speakeasy party and tallboys of Budweiser would kill the aesthetic. Though people can surprise you! I hosted a Mad Men party and provided lots of stuff, but my friends still showed up with fancy mixers and such.
Jaya: On either side of the equation, remember that you’re dealing with people you like. If you’re a host, try to trust that your friends are nice, considerate people who would offer to bring something or to help out without your explicit instructions. And if you’re a guest, be that nice, considerate guest for your friend who is being nice and hosting a party. Be generous with friends, no matter which role you’re playing.