Category Archives: Etiquette News

The Good Guy Discount

Posted on by

0

[via Wikimedia Commons]

These days, the “Good Guy Discount” has been getting a lot of press. Basically it entails asking for a discount for no other reason than “I’m a good guy, you’re a good guy, so maybe you could give me a discount.” Barf.

Recently, This American Life talked about this good guy discount, and I loved that it didn’t go in the direction I had expected. They sent out a reporter to three different stores where he asked for the good guy discount. He was actually successful in once instance, but ultimately felt that it was “smarmy” and like saying “the thing I’m going to do as a good guy is ask you to do me a favor and cost yourself money, that’s what a good guy I am.”

This has been the problem I have had since the first time I heard about the “Good Guy Discount.” Only a person who is not a good guy asks for a discount for no reason. It’s super pressurey and puts the sales person on the spot when they are already in a position where they don’t have much power. And it is always bad etiquette to make someone feel uncomfortable unnecessarily.

The best way to get a discount is to a) have a good reason (some kind of damage, paying in cash (but only in the type of situation where it is strongly more desirable to get cash), or just genuinely being a good guy. I have most often been given discounts when I didn’t ask for them, and I guess seemed really excited about what I was buying (also sometimes it helps to walk away and think about it and come back). But also, this has MOSTLY happened to me at antiques/vintage clothes fairs where there is expected to be some degree of haggling and you are dealing directly with the owner and they have high incentive to sell as much as possible.

What To Do If Someone Gets Stabbed At Your Wedding

Posted on by

1

We were shocked and appalled to see this post on Reddit:

One of my [26/F] bridesmaids [26/F] stabbed and nearly killed my husband’s [26/M] cousin [30/F] at our wedding. What do we do with the gifts they both gave us, and what do we say to our guests?

Of course it was way too juicy for us not to talk about it:

 

Jaya: Okay so generally, I would assume the stabbing victim did not do anything wrong? Or less wrong than the aggressor.

Victoria: Yeah, generally.

Jaya: So you know, nothing wrong with his gift.

Victoria: Although, I don’t know how I would feel if they had been fully participating in starting and escalating the fight.

Jaya: Right, and unfortunately there don’t seem to be more details.

Victoria: I think someone suggested in the comments giving the stabber’s gift to charity. I think that is nice, or give it to the person who got stabbed.

Jaya: Yeah, or donating it to your cousin’s medical bills. I don’t think giving back either of the gifts is normal? Some people are saying it is.

Victoria: Yeah, that seems weird.

Jaya: I don’t know, if I got stabbed, the last thing I’m thinking about is the ice bucket I got you off your registry.

Victoria: And like, chances are they came a while before the wedding. And HEY, you totally deserve that ice bucket for having such a ruckus at your wedding. I would send the couple extra gifts.

Jaya: Right? Like, they’re staying you should rip up a check which 1. assuming you got a check, which maybe you didn’t and 2.how does that help/change anything?

Victoria: Yeah, so that’s that for the gift situation. For relations- I would definitely say call the family of the cousin who got stabbed to profusely apologize and express your total shock about the situation. And definitely visit at the hospital and bring flowers etc. And I would go so far as to say, write some kind of note or call the other guests at the wedding to update them that the cousin is doing well and that you can’t believe it happened, etc etc. specially thank anyone who went above and beyond in the situation to help.

Jaya: I totally agree with all your advice. Though I don’t think the couple needs to feel all that responsible. I mean, unless they orchestrated it. But it seems like they had nothing to do with it!

Victoria: Yeah! It’s just one of those things Oh and obviously never talk to that bridesmaid again.

Jaya: What would you even write? “sorry someone got stabbed at our wedding?”

Victoria: I mean, I would write something like “we deeply regret the tragic event that occurred at our wedding and want to assure you that [cousin] is doing well.”

Jaya: Damn you’re good at this.

Victoria: But a phone call might be a good idea unless the wedding was huge.

Jaya: And you know, I’m sure people will be asking, so it may not even be an issue of writing a note. You can just tell anyone who calls you that it’s resolved and your cousin is okay.

Victoria: I might write that on any thank you notes that hadn’t been written yet. Just because it would be weird not to mention it

Jaya: That’s a good idea. I love that a Google search to see if there’s a news story about this just brings up stuff about “backstabbing bridesmaids.”

Etiquette And Equality Don’t Always Benefit You, And That’s Okay

Posted on by

1

I’ll start out by saying that feminism and equal rights are not the realm of “etiquette.” It is “good manners” to treat people with respect on a one-on-one basis, but systemic disenfranchisement is something far bigger than these rules and guidelines tackle. But you wouldn’t know that after reading Sheryl Sandberg’s and Adam Grant’s New York Times piece, “How Men Can Succeed In The Boardroom And The Bedroom.”

It starts innocuously enough by attempting to debunk the myth that gender equality is a zero-sum game, which I understand some people still need to be told. However, it quickly devolves into explaining to men how including women in business decisions, doing housework, and being nice to them can benefit them personally. Apparently men who do chores are happier, live longer, and have better sex with their partners. If we can convince men that they can get something out of it, they argue, equality will happen. “We need to go further and articulate why equality is not just the right thing to do for women but the desirable thing for us all,” they write.

Except we don’t.

What we need to do is teach everyone that sometimes you do things because they’re the right thing to do, regardless of how this benefits you. This is a common tenet of etiquette. You give up your seat for an old man even though now you have to stand. You don’t cut in line even though it’d get you out of the store faster. You learn that not everything directly benefits you, and you are okay with that because you’re an adult. Needing to be told personal benefits or rewards for actions is how a child’s mind works. The article explains that both the Women’s Suffrage movement and the 1960s Civil Rights movement found success after they proved how their causes would benefit everyone. They use this as proof that modern equal rights movements must do the same. However, we should have moved past this by now.

That’s not to say you’re doomed to put up with “bad” things happening to you just for the betterment of society, though if that were the case, it still wouldn’t be a problem. There’s an episode of Friends where Phoebe attempts to find a completely selfless act. Throughout the episode she does things for other people, only to realize that she benefited from the interaction in some tangible way as well. Eventually she donates money to PBS, an organization she hates, in an attempt to be completely selfless, but it unintentionally gets Joey (who’s manning the pledge drive phones) on TV. She’s still out of money, and she still gave it to a place she doesn’t actually support, but she feels good because she helped someone. If anything, that is what manners are for. We learn to feel good not because something good happened to us, but because we contributed to the ease and comfort of all the lives around us. That should be motivation enough.

Talking About Tipping

Posted on by

9

Not THAT kind of tipping [Via Flickr user tracy_n_brandon]

Not THAT kind of tipping [Via Flickr user tracy_n_brandon]

Recently, Gothamist posted an article saying that you must tip a dollar on your coffee. Naturally, since we just had a big post about tipping, we had a few thoughts (what else is new) on the subject:

Victoria: Dirty lies!!

Jaya: Hahahahaha

Victoria: Also, IDK about smaller coffee places but my last investigation into the subject was that Starbucks pays at least several dollars over minimum wage and also has health insurance for employees (this might not be true, I realize!).

Jaya: Absolutely. For smaller places you may not be able to know, but Starbucks might negate that “tip to bump up hourly pay to minimum wage” thing. But yeah, it’s hard to know.

Victoria: Yeah. Well technically only actual servers in restaurants are not paid minimum wage. All coffee shops and ice cream places and whatever MUST pay at least minimum wage. Although this brings up a good point about bars- why do we tip at bars? (IDK about how bartenders are paid).

Jaya: Dunkin Donuts seems to hover around minimum wage too (I  can’t see city specific stuff). Not that minimum wage is perfect. I think bartenders are paid more like waiters at most places, like $2-3 dollars an hour and then tips.

Victoria: Yeah, I mean, certainly tip if you want! But then like, why aren’t you tipping someone who helps you find the perfect dress at Macy’s? It just seems so arbitrary, the whole tipping thing.

Jaya: Because those sales people get commission often! Like, at stores where they asked if anyone in particular helped you, that’s commission.

Victoria: Oh! right! I guess I forgot about that. But then, like, Target? Sometimes they help me a bunch. And I know fancy stores do commission. But like, your basic Macy’s?

Jaya: It really does get confusing. It becomes the consumer’s responsibility to understand the salary plans of each place they go to.

Victoria: Lol which is totally nuts. And, like, at a busy Starbucks- if everyone tipped a dollar, that’s a SERIOUSLY huge amount of money.

Jaya: But right, most of the reasoning behind tipping in this country is based on the assumption that the person serving you is making much, much lower than minimum wage. But if they are making that or above, what is the incentive? Just being nice? A recognition that minimum wage isn’t a living wage? Basically, the system’s fucked.

Victoria: Yeah, I mean, I guess the point is to reward good service. But if you are literally pouring me a coffee because I have come into a coffee shop and ordered coffee…does that REALLY deserve a tip? I mean, I get if you walk in and they start on your order right away and maybe sometimes they sneak you a free muffin. But just doing the bare minimum of your job?

Jaya: Right, I do think tipping has become detached from the idea of it being a reward. And being on your feet all day and up early and dealing with people is a tough job. But lots of people have tough jobs that don’t have the opportunity for tip jars. Jobs that also don’t pay well.  I so wish we could have a real, living wage minimum wage, and that food workers were paid it, so I didn’t have to worry that not having a dollar on me that day means they can’t make rent.

Victoria: Yeah, that’s what I hate about tipping, it’s so stressful.

Jaya: Right. Sometimes I don’t have extra cash. And I hope that my local coffee shop won’t hate me if I don’t have change on me a few times.

Victoria: And then, like at weddings, when there’s an open bar people are tipping and technically, the host should be tipping at the end of the night so the guests are always a guest and never has to open their wallet.

Jaya: No see that’s good because you slip them a $5 at the beginning of the night and all your drinks are hella strong.

Victoria:  Lol, I have really never noticed a difference. And at MY wedding (n.b. I am in no way getting married anytime soon), I won’t allow the staff to except tips because its ridiculous for my guests to be tipping them when I will also be tipping them at the end.

Jaya: Hahahaha

Victoria: Also I didn’t really see anyone doing it at your wedding. But other weddings I have.

Jaya: I didn’t even notice if there was a tip jar. But from the papers I signed, I know all the servers were paid well!

Victoria: There wasn’t! But I’ve never seen a tip jar at a wedding, I’ve only seen people hand it to the bartender. But exactly my point- you were the host and you saw to it that the people you hired were well paid for their time! As it should be. I’ve actually read that some hosts find it insulting for people to tip at weddings, because it implies that people don’t think the host is paying the staff adequately. Not that I agree that that’s what’s going on

Jaya: Oh god I’ve never even thought that hard about it. I’m just on bartender=tip autopilot.

Victoria: Lol yeah. I mean, everyone has the best intentions, I’m sure. But like, what if you had a fancy party at your house where there was a bartender and waiters and someone doing dishes? And like, why should the bartender get tips when the waiters don’t?

Jaya: We had that once! My building hosted a building-wide holiday party a few times. It was 5 units so it wasn’t nuts.

Victoria: Yeah, and wouldn’t it be weird for someone to tip someone who was working in your house?

Jaya: Definitely, because yeah, we handed them a check with a tip included.

Victoria: Yeah! Exactly.

Jaya: I mean, if someone thought they were doing that really great job, it’s not on me to PREVENT someone from tipping. Because again, I don’t think anyone would do it in an assumption that I wasn’t paying well enough. I don’t know, it’s so interesting to me that tipping remains this one thing that is so inconsistent across different job sectors, and so disagreed upon. Like, that core “just be a good person” thing about etiquette, no one can figure out what that means with tipping. I guess you can just walk into every establishment, ask what the average hourly wage is for their servers, and decide accordingly. Totally practical.

Victoria: HA. Yeah, and then corporate chains such as McDonalds don’t allow tipping even though you can be pretty sure they are paid as close to minimum wage as possible.

Jaya: Yes! And then it just devolves into this argument over who deserves it and who doesn’t and all the drama that comes with that.

Victoria: Yeah, it’s so nuts.

Jaya: When really, it just comes down to everyone deserving a living wage. And that’s on the company, not the customers. Or at least, should be.

Victoria: Totally. And to an extent, I feel some classism in it- like you will tip at the fancy coffee shop where the staff probably grew up middle class and went to college and follows the liberal arts major=barista stereotype, but you won’t tip at Dunkin Donuts/McDonalds where the workers are more likely to be immigrants or working class.

Jaya: Yesssss

Victoria: So you want to support people “like you” who are just “kids trying to get ahead.”

Jaya: And I mean, I’m sure that’s part of the bigger companies too if they don’t let you tip. So the original Gothamist article mentions Cafe Grumpy, a very good but also very chichi cafe chain where apparently STARTING pay is 50% above minimum wage.

Victoria: Yeah! And I can’t read the original NYT article but apparently the thing was that they were suggesting a $3 tip on a $4 coffee.

Jaya: Well they have one of those SquareSpace iPad readers where you just click a suggested tip button. And I agree that’s pretty presumptuous but you can type in your own, or choose not to do it.

Victoria: Ahhh. I mean, still, a lot of people feel pressured by “suggested” amounts, like that they will be a total cheapo if they go lower. *ahem* The Metropolitan Museum of Art *ahem*

Jaya: Hahahahahaha. But right, there is no way to come up with a uniform policy. If it’s based on their hourly wages, then you have to make sure you know what they are. If it’s based on service, then great, tip every single person that serves you in some way, equally.

Victoria: Omg and then never go anywhere because you are going to be broke.

Jaya: Well we solved it. How to tip: just die already.

Victoria: What IF, everyone tipped so much that service jobs became the new upper class and then everyone tried to be a service worker and then there were too many service workers and not enough people to buy stuff and the service jobs had to become minimum wage and it was an ugly cycle. That’s my new dystopian novel.

Jaya: I was just gonna say that!!!!!!!

Victoria: Also every single thing I read about tipping, it’s like half the commenters are like, “well I ALWAYS tip a minimum of 40%” and it can’t POSSIBLY be true otherwise servers wouldn’t complain so much.

Jaya: Hahahaha. It’s true! Everyone is ready to be the MOST GENEROUS.

Victoria: I also find something icky about the type of guy who tips ostentatiously. Like, just tip like a normal amount. (Not to begrudge servers and stuff).

Jaya: Right like, he heard too many stories about how women don’t like men who are mean to servers, so he swung the other direction.

Victoria: The “nice guy” of tipping.

Jaya: The more I think about it, the more tipping frustrates me. I mean literally, this is the genesis of shit like Uber and whatever. It’s systems that put all the risk on the employees and customers and not the employers.

Victoria: Hahaha yesssssss.

Jaya: And you can’t win against that. Arguing about how much to tip and social norms and generosity doesn’t change the fact that it should be the company paying a living wage and giving good benefits (or maybe the government taking care of health care).

Victoria: Totally. And then we can be like the paradise that is Europe where a tip is just a little extra.

Jaya: I’m not normally one to romanticize all things European, but this is one thing I will.

More Title Ruminations

Posted on by

0

So we received a lot of responses from Friday’s post about CUNY doing away with gendered salutations. Some people rightly pointed out that in certain professions, such as the law, are more formal and people use formal titles frequently. It was also mentioned that in some cultures, using titles as a form of respect is more expected for everyone. We ended up talking about it even further:

Jaya: Titles are something you do because you think it connotes respect, but if lots of people aren’t feeling respected, don’t do it!

Victoria: When we speak about it in the business world, I think company culture comes into play a lot. To purposefully go against what everyone else is doing out of some feeling of old fashionedness and having been raised to call someone Mr. or Ms., then it’s weird. And I think you risk not being taken seriously, especially as a young woman in the business world.

Jaya: I mean, I think it depends on what business you’re going into. As some lawyers pointed out, they’d probably be considered very unprofessional if they didn’t use them.

Victoria: Oh I just meant going against the norms of the work culture you are in. If you work in a law office where everyone is called Mr. and Ms., it’s fine. If you work at a tech startup and wear 3 piece suits and call everyone Mr. and Ms. when everyone else is in jeans and using first names, it’s an affectation that will probably stand out unfavorably. Until you earn the respect to be eccentric if being eccentric is what you want. But if you call someone Mr. Smith because as a child you were taught that children call grownups by their titles, then you are likely to be treated as a child.

Jaya: Yesss. Yeah I looked it up and Mr. was totally used for like, people of higher station than you.

Victoria: Um yeah. In Mad Men the secretaries always call Don “Mr. Draper” and he calls them Susan or whatever. Among the people who are equals, even then, they used first names. I believe Joan even switched to calling Peggy “Miss Olsen,” once she was promoted to a station above Joan’s. So I do find it pretty disturbing for professional women to continue to follow that type of outdated convention, especially if they are the only one’s doing it.

Jaya: Yesssssss. You’re so smart.

Victoria: Lol, well, my mom has some horror stories about working in finance in the aerospace industry in the 1970s/80s. I asked her why she didn’t watch Mad Men when it’s so good- “Darling, I lived it, I don’t want to watch it.”

Jaya: This is also a generational thing too, right?

Victoria: Yeah, probably. I have found that my parents preferred that my friends call them Mr. and Mrs. Pratt when I was in HS (but not now that my friends are adults!! Now they introduce themselves to my friends with their first names.) But my parents are slightly older than the parents of my friends and a lot of them preferred to be called by their first names even when we were kids. I would have a harder time making the switch from calling someone by their first name if I called them by their title as a kid than I would calling an adult by their first name if I met them now.

Jaya: But I think there’s value in being like “okay, this is what you grew up with, and this is how others may perceive it.”

Victoria: Definitely, especially if what you grew up with is becoming something that is not the norm in our overall American culture. Like I said, when I started working I felt a very strong need to call people Mr. and Ms. because I was used to calling teachers that, but I got over it suuuper quickly because it would have stood out SO MUCH and highlighted how young I was at the time.

Jaya: And if lots of people are saying using these types of titles are offensive or oppressive, then that takes precedent over tradition.

Victoria: Right, that’s the thing, etiquette is always evolving and as we learn more about the great variety of people we have around us and the less people fit into very rigid boxes, the more etiquette will have to change to take that into account. And I think we’ve seen from the feedback that we’ve gotten and the comments on the Jezebel article, that people have wildly different opinions about titles- some love them and feel respected and some hate them and feel oppressed, so there’s not really a solution that will make everyone happy.